Jan 4, 2023
Mike Evans is the Founder of
GrubHub, and the author of “Hangry: A Startup Journey.”
Mike founded GrubHub in his spare
bedroom and grew it into a multi-billion dollar food delivery
business that’s a household name. After leaving GrubHub, he founded
Fixer.com, an on-demand handyperson service focused on social
impact, and providing full-time work for well-trained tradespeople.
Mike shares what he learned from raising a startup to IPO, biking
across America, and writing “Hangry.” He believes it is necessary to create a
business not just to make a profit, but to be powerful levers for
social change.
https://bit.ly/TLP-340
Key Takeaways
[2:27] Mike loves cycling and
getting around places by bike, but not quickly. After the GrubHub
experience, he rode his bike across the country. Later, Mike and
his wife rode across Austria. They hope to ride across another
country soon with their daughter. Mike tells what he likes about
electric bikes.
[4:41] As GrubHub grew from a
few employees to 2,500 employees over 12 years, there were two
things that increased his anxiety and made it challenging to
live.
[5:14] The first challenge was
the fact that there are a lot of competing interests: shareholders,
employees, diners, and restaurants and it was hard to balance them
all. There’s no scenario where everybody wins 100%. There are
tradeoffs. It was a tightrope walk to do. Mike started seeing the
company making different choices as it grew beyond him. That was
challenging to see.
[6:09] The second challenge was
hiring. As a business leader, you either hire your friends, or the
people you hire become your friends. Sometimes you have to make
decisions that are not the best outcomes for your employee-friends.
When you have to let people go that you like, you cannot recover
those friendships. They’re gone. You can’t fire somebody and then
go hang out with them.
[6:37] It should be hard to fire
someone. You can’t be good
at firing people and be a good leader. It should never get easier.
You should care a lot about the people you work with. The competing
interests, and having to fire friends took a toll on Mike over the
course of a decade.
[7:53] Contentment is fleeting,
especially for entrepreneurs who start from a place where
“something is broken in the world and I’m really annoyed by it.”
Mike doesn’t think contentment was ever in the cards for him. An
entrepreneur has to see the world with an expectation that it could
be better than it currently is, which is not a good recipe for
contentment.
[9:45] Mike believes it’s
important to have a personal definition of success that other
people or factors don’t define. Other people won’t necessarily
agree with it. Mike tells how he defined success all the way up
through GrubHub’s IPO. Other people told him the IPO was his
success, but that wasn’t Mike’s definition. Your definition of
success gives you a North Star for one aspect of your life,
business.
[11:11] You also need personal
definitions of success for your relationships, family, faith
community, and civic community. Then you need to do the hard step
of making tradeoffs between them. Work/life balance is elusive
because it’s impossible to achieve. You have to make tradeoffs. The
best you can do is say “I have a clear-eyed picture of what I want
from a family perspective,” and make choices explicitly.
[12:03] If you don’t choose
explicitly, things happen to you instead of you making choices.
That’s what causes imbalance, frustration, anger, and
disappointment. Your definitions of success change during your
journey. As you approach your goals, the goalposts move. It’s a
destination and a journey. It’s not one or the other. As we do hard
things, we change, and therefore our goals change.
[12:54] Sometimes we fail. If
you’re not going to be able to accomplish a goal, continuing to
have it as a goal is only an exercise in frustration. Be able to
say “This isn’t working; I’m going to go try doing something else.”
Whether you succeed or fail, your goals change. Success is a larger
concept; it’s the accumulation of goals over decades.
[13:54] Mike compares how he
feels about goals today with what he might have felt at age 24. One
of the themes in his book is Think Bigger. Don’t set your goals
low. When Mike launched GrubHub, he just wanted to pay off his
student debt. He missed the opportunity to embed the value of “Do
right by restaurants, no matter what,” in the DNA of the company.
At 24, he only wanted to make money.
[14:37] If Mike had struggled at
age 24 with the decision about doing right by the restaurants,
there might have been a better outcome over the decades.
[16:17] Starting GrubHub and
taking it through the IPO involved thousands of decisions of Mike
letting go. On Day 1, Mike owned 100% of GrubHub with 100% of the
responsibility for it. On the day Mike kicked off on his bike ride
across the country, he had 0% of the responsibility. He had a few
shares in GrubHub for six more months. His hack was to give up
first the thing he hated most — scanning menus!
[18:14] Mike’s first hire, a
graphic designer to scan menus, went on to create the brand which
ended up in two Super Bowl ads. He started scanning menus but had
an opportunity from being in a high-growth startup. He ended up
having to delegate. Once you hire your first employee, you get your
first investor. Lean in on that and enjoy it!
[19:31] Accepting reality is a
paradox for an entrepreneur. You have to have enough arrogance to
say “The world is broken, it needs to be fixed, and I’m the only
person who can do it,” and you have to have the humility to listen
to your customers and employees about what you’re doing right and
wrong, and how to adjust. Arrogance and humility do not “play nice”
together. Mike doesn’t always get it right.
[20:28] If you put a document in
front of five people, they’re all going to start editing it.
Don’t put a press release in front
of anybody but the people who have the responsibility of doing the
press release. One way to keep micromanagement from happening, to
allow people to delegate, is don’t put the work product in front of
them before it’s done. Don’t give people editing access.
[20:54] Not micromanaging starts
with not being in there to edit things. Trust people to do their
work. Tactical things like that help you to let go of the small
decisions.
[21:33] Mike’s book has a humble
tone, but the exclamation point at the end is, “I had a fricking
IPO, folks!” Mike captures in the book the paradox of arrogance and
humility needed to run a startup well.
[23:18] Mike had done week-long
backpacking trips and liked being out in nature. On one of those
trips with his wife, he went to Grand Tetons National Park and
camped. He saw people riding in on bikes and setting up tents. It
was the TransAmerican Trail cross-country bike tour going through
the park. Mike thought biking and carrying a pack on a rack was a
way better idea than hiking with a backpack!
[24:14] The bike tour sounded
like a very accessible adventure. It was accessible because he did
it in 90 fifty-mile bike rides, not one 4,500-mile bike ride. His
first day was just 25 miles. One thing Mike learned is that it
starts with the first mile. The best training for Week Two is Week
One. The best training for Week One is to go slow. Don’t try to eat
up the miles in your first week.
[24:54] Anyone physically able
can ride 10 miles on a bike. You can do that and you can take lunch
and you can do that again. And that can be your whole first day.
You build up until you’re riding 100 miles in a day. The decision
for Mike was just following something he was interested in doing.
He quit his job to ride his bike across the country. It was a very
clear decision for his life.
[26:18] Mike kept a journal of
his bike ride, on MikeEvans.com. He used those notes in
Hangry to write about his bike trip. The trip
reinforced something for Mike: the idea that you don’t do it all at
once. When he looks back, yes he did a 4,500-mile bike ride. Day to
day, he woke up every morning and made the decision to start
pedaling a mile.
[26:51] Long-haul hikers say,
“Don’t quit at the end of a long day. Wait till the morning, when
you’re fresh.” A lot of people feel like quitting when they’re
tired. When you wake up in the morning you see you can do another
day. That was true for Mike in business, as well. He kept at it
because he had a bigger mission he was trying to
accomplish.
[28:14] Mike’s purposes for his
bike trip were to reflect on what he had accomplished, how he did
it, and how he felt about it, and to consider what he was going to
do next. That led to the creation of Fixer, the on-demand
handyperson business. The handypersons are full-time employees,
trained from scratch. He wanted to create a business with social
benefits built-in: great employment with a path into the
trades.
[29:11] Mike’s first decision
for the bike trip was to buy a recumbent bike because he wanted to
look at the horizon instead of the ground. He already had a tent.
He rented a van and drove it down to Virginia Beach. One thing that
helped is that the Adventure Cycling Association publishes
TransAmerica Trail bike route maps so he ordered a set of maps and
joined their online community to talk about the ride.
[31:51] Starting a business is
ugly and hard. It’s filled with self-doubt and recriminations. To
succeed, you have to make tough choices and a lot of people judge
you for those choices. Mike also judges GrubHub and where it went
after he left from the IPO and how it became a poster child for the
gig economy and not great for restaurants. That is frustrating to
Mike.
[32:21] It felt to Mike that it
was important to tell the whole story and how businesses are huge
levers for social change, whether you want them to be or not. When
Mike was intentional about that at GrubHub, it was beneficial for
restaurants. When that intentionality left the business, it was not
as good for restaurants.
[32:40] Mike’s goal with
Hangry is to show the idea of changing the world by
creating a business. He wanted to make it accessible and he wanted
to elevate the importance of being intentional about creating the
change you want to see in the world through the business. It’s not
a thing you can do after the business is done, through charity
work. You have to create the business as a lever for social
change.
[33:21] Hangry is mostly about trying to take what Mike
learned and letting other people learn from it and live their
lives, whether as an entrepreneur, a business leader, or an
executive in a company and do their work in such a way that the
communities in which they operate benefit from what they’re
doing.
[34:11] The book is
called Hangry, so Mike isn’t happy and pleasant the whole
time. He’s snarky about exclusionism. Silicon Valley is great at
drawing circles and saying “You can’t come in.” Cyclists do it,
too! There are lots of groups that draw a circle and say, “You’re
not allowed inside this circle.” Mike says that Silicon Valley is
particularly good at excluding anybody who’s not a white male.
There’s a better way.
[34:52] Democratizing the
startup culture, democratizing the process, and demystifying the
hero narrative that people use sometimes, make it more accessible
to people. There’s an urgency to making our world a better place
for our children and grandchildren that sort of raises the bar for
what success looks like at a business. It can’t just be making
money anymore.
[36:27] The catalyst for
creating Fixer.com was trying to get a handyperson and having to
use “the phone app” on his phone. He wondered who uses that
anymore! He started looking into it. The work that tradespeople do
in the economy right now is typically great. Scheduling,
communication, and billing are not done well. They’re
inaccessible.
[37:23] It’s hard for people to
enter the trades unless they have an uncle or father who shows them
how to do things. It continues the bias against women entering the
trades. Entry-level handyperson jobs are good-paying jobs. They’re
also stepping stones to becoming an electrician, a plumber, a
roofer, or a mason. It was the same problem he saw with food. You
can’t order things online and it’s annoying.
[37:54] He wanted to make
handypersons more accessible, but he found there just aren’t enough
tradespeople. So he figured that by training people from scratch,
they would get quality and wrap it in modern packaging. You
schedule online and ask for someone to be there at 11:00 a.m. and
the handyperson shows up by 11:00 a.m. They’re highly trained, and
they clean up after the job.
[38:45] Mike uses the service
himself, even though he’s pretty handy.
[40:00] Fixer.com has hundreds
of applicants for every job position that they open. They target
people who are working in food service, grocery, and retail and
invite them to have a career instead of a job. Fixer.com pays
people while training them. It’s easy to get people on board.
People in the service field don’t have the flexibility to set their
hours and schedule, which is hard in this job climate.
[40:48] The adoption of working
from home as a norm is damaging to people who don’t have that
flexibility and it creates a two-class society. Seventy-five
percent of the people at Fixer.com are tradespeople, not office
workers. At some point, they will have 10,000 tradespeople as
full-time employees. Mike is concerned about issues of equity and
expectations around time.
[42:34] Mike explains why he
picked a business model that’s hard and hard to copy. It is
intentional and it makes his company the competition that everyone
else worries about. He’s building a multi-billion dollar business
that will be hard to compete with.
[43:51] Mike’s listener
challenge: “I would love it if everybody would buy the book. … If
you want the summary line, it’s this idea that businesses affect
the communities in which they work, and being intentional about
what that impact is, is really, really important.” You’re going to
be juggling competing priorities, but it’s still useful even if
you're considering a socially beneficial impact for every
decision.
[45:19] Closing quote: Remember,
“Make no little plans; they
have no magic to stir men’s blood and probably themselves will not
be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and
work.” —
Daniel Burnham
Quotable Quotes
- “I’m not like one of these fast people who are
always racing along the Lake Path in Chicago. Seeing the country;
getting places at 10 mph is great. … After the GrubHub experience,
I rode my bike across the country.” — Mike
- “Electric bikes are great. They really create
access for people who might not otherwise physically be able to do
it. And so I think they sort of democratize our bike trails. I’m a
big fan of electric bikes.” — Mike
- “It should be hard to fire people, anyway. …
You can’t be good at firing people and be a good leader. I think
those two things are totally mutually exclusive. It should always
be hard. It should never get easier. You should care a lot about
the people you work with.” — Mike
- “The difference between an entrepreneur and a
miserable grump is that the entrepreneur actually does something
about it. So, I’m not sure it was ever in the cards for me to be
content.” — Mike
- “[An entrepreneur] has to see the world with an
expectation that it could be better than it currently is, which is
not a good recipe for contentment.” — Mike
- “I think it’s really important to have an
internal, personal definition of success that’s not defined by some
external factor.” — Mike
- “Sometimes we fail. If you’re not going to be
able to accomplish a goal, continuing to have it as a goal is only
an exercise in frustration and self-punishment. So being able to say, ‘This isn’t working,
I’m going to go try something else,’ is also important.” —
Mike
- “People often ask me ‘What’s the most strategic
hire that you can do first?’ … Forget that! Hire somebody to do
something that’s the most annoying thing to you. And then you start
to get the benefit of ‘I don’t have to do every little thing.’” —
Mike
- “Don’t put a press release in front of anybody
but the people who have the responsibility of doing the press
release. One way to keep micromanagement from happening, to allow
people to delegate, is don’t put the work product in front of them
before it’s done.” — Mike
- “The tone of the book is humble. I tried to be
self-reflective in the book, but the exclamation point at the end
is, ‘I had a fricking IPO, folks!’ which is not a humble thing. I’m
kind of bragging.” — Mike
- “Anyone physically able can ride 10 miles on a
bike. You can do that and then you take lunch and you can do that
again. And that can be your whole first day. And then by the time
you hit the Rockies, a 100-mile day is like, ‘Oh, yeah, I’ve been
doing this for weeks!’” — Mike
- “There’s an urgency to making our world a
better place for our children and grandchildren that sort of raises
the bar for what success looks like at a business. It’s not just
making money anymore. It can’t just be that.” — Mike
- “Picking hard business models, that are
necessarily hard, to create value for customers is a really good
defense against competition. What we’re doing is hard and so it’s
hard to copy. And that’s very intentional.” — Mike
- “The thing that really sucks about competition
is it’s not in your control. But … you can choose to pick a
business model where you have to have some grit and some hard work
and some thoughtfulness and some talent to make it work. … And then
you are
the competition.” —
Mike
- “Businesses affect the communities in which they
work, and being intentional about what that impact is, is really,
really important. … it’s still useful even if you can’t make every
decision toward a socially beneficial impact if you’re considering
it for every decision.” —
Mike
Resources Mentioned